Episode 88: Tending to the Voice Within with Barbara McAfee

In this episode of The Well-Tended Life Podcast, I sit down with author, speaker, singer-songwriter, and voice coach Barbara McAfee for a conversation that will change the way you think about one of the most overlooked parts of yourself—your voice.

What begins as a conversation about communication quickly unfolds into something much deeper. Barbara shares her own journey of discovering the full power of her voice, not just as a singer, but as a pathway to healing, confidence, authenticity, and wholehearted living.

Together, we explore why so many women learn to make themselves smaller, how life experiences shape the way we speak, and what our voices reveal long before we ever say a word. Barbara introduces her Five Elements Framework and explains how our voices can help us set healthier boundaries, communicate with greater confidence, process grief, and reconnect with parts of ourselves we've unintentionally silenced.

We also talk about the surprising connection between voice and healing, the role singing plays in emotional well-being, why our bodies are designed to heal, and simple practices anyone can begin using today to become a more grounded and authentic communicator.

This conversation is thoughtful, inspiring, and full of practical wisdom for anyone who has ever struggled to speak up, be heard, or simply trust their own voice.

💛 Here are a few heart taps from this episode:

1️⃣ Your voice tells a story long before your words ever do.

2️⃣ Many of us have learned to make ourselves smaller—but our voices were never meant to stay small.

3️⃣ Healing often begins when we allow ourselves to fully express what we've been holding inside.

4️⃣ Singing, sound, and even a simple yawn can help regulate your nervous system and reconnect you with your body.

5️⃣ The way you communicate affects not only you, but everyone around you.

6️⃣ Setting healthy boundaries isn't only about what you say—it's about how you say it.

7️⃣ Your authentic voice has been within you all along, waiting to be rediscovered.

If you've ever felt overlooked, struggled to communicate confidently, or wondered how to show up more fully as yourself, this episode will encourage you to stop shrinking and start trusting the voice that has always been yours.

Connect with Barbara McAfee:

Website: www.barbaramcafee.com

Book: Vocal Intelligence: The 9 Principles of Growing Your Vocal Impact

Barbara McAfee is an author, keynote speaker, master voice coach, and singer-songwriter who has spent more than two decades helping people discover the power of their authentic voice. Through her teaching, music, and the Vocal Intelligence framework, Barbara empowers people to communicate with greater presence, confidence, and connection while embracing the fullness of who they are.

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Transcript

 Hey friend, welcome to the Well Tended Life podcast. Here's what I know. No one accidentally grows a thriving life. Just like a garden, growth takes tending, and every season teaches us something new. That's why in each episode, we're talking with people who have learned to navigate change, overcome challenges, chased meaningful dreams, and have continued to grow through it all. These conversations are filled with encouragement, honesty, wisdom, and practical ways to tend to what matters most. So grab a cup of something to sip on, settle in, and listen up Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Well-Tended Life podcast. I'm your host, Kerri Wilt, a speaker, teacher, and life coach who's on a mission to help women unlock the life they put on hold while they were tending to everyone and everything else but them. Now, one of the things I love most about my great-great-grandmother's book, The Secret Garden, is that she understood that people don't just communicate with words. And as I was , rereading her book before today's interview, I started noticing how often she describes how someone spoke. Mary speaks in a determined voice, and Ben Weatherstaff answers in a grumbling voice, and Dickon asks a question in a dropped voice, and someone else speaks in a worried voice. Again and again, my great-great-grandmother Frances reminds us that our voices tell a story long before our words do. And it made me stop and wonder, if someone was listening to me today but couldn't understand a single word I was saying, what story would my voice tell? Would it sound hurried? Would it sound peaceful? Would it sound confident? Would it sound anxious, joyful, maybe exhausted? Probably depending on the day. Well, today's guest has spent years helping people answer exactly those kinds of questions. Barbara McAfee is the author of Vocal Intelligence, and her work explores something we rarely think about, that our voice isn't just how we communicate. It reflects how we're showing up in the world. And today we're gonna talk about how our voices shape relationships, leaderships, and even the way we experience our own lives. Because when we begin tending not only to what we say but how we say it, we often discover a whole new way of connecting with others. So let's dig in. Welcome, Barbara. It's a joy to be here. Thanks for that great introduction. You're welcome. I am so excited about our conversation today. Why don't you give a brief introduction of our, yourself to the audience, and maybe give a little background as to kind of how you arrived here today with your current path, mission, and purpose? Well, like many people who help, I came to my work through my own challenges. I sang my whole life, uh, in choirs, good ones. I was very lucky in that way. Uh, but when I stepped out to start singing by myself, I thought I was going to die. And that's a pretty common experience for many people, but I come from solo singers. My grandfather sang on the radio in Iowa when my mother was growing up. My mother was a solo singer. My big brother was in a band and a solo singer. And so I was, I was landed with that wonderful question, what's wrong with me, you know? And that question led me on this long and winding journey to uncover the sources of that fear and joyfully the remedies for that fear. And my voice has been sort of pulling me through my life. I kind of feel like I'm water skiing behind my voice. That's my metaphor. So that's kind of how it, in a very general way, how I came to this work, was through my own wounds and healing have you been a voice teacher? Do you, do you teach piano lessons? Like, , like,, do you have, like, a regular other job and this is just, like, a side thing that you do? Like, tell me about that. Okay. This is my work in the world. , uh, I was 12 years as an organizational development consultant, um, kind of while I was developing this work. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm an artist, so I'm always gonna have multiple channels, always. I'm a singer-songwriter, so always gonna have a divided life. Yes. So I'm over here writing songs and also uncovering my voice, not just through speaking or singing, but through sound, 'cause I found these teachers from the Roy Hart Center in the South of France. They came to Minneapolis, where I lived, and opened my voice to sound. I thought my voice ended here when I went to the first weekend. And I made sound there. And that gap blew my mind and changed my whole life for, I don't know, forever, in ways I can, I can't even talk about. And so I was over there developing my voice using sound and make-believe, you know, making characters, uh, to kind of open up those possibilities while I'm doing my consulting work. And then the worlds collided along the way because one of my colleagues came to me and said, "I know you're doing this work with your voice. I have this client who's brilliant in every way, but she has a voice like this. And all of her brilliance doesn't really matter because nobody wants to be in the room with her." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, that's a tragedy right there." This woman with all these gifts, and the only thing between her and delivering those gifts is this voice. So of course I worked with her. And then- Eventually I left organizational development, and for the past 23 years I have been doing voice coaching, uh, writing two books, uh, and now I'm training people to carry my work because there's a lot of voices that need to be liberated, and there's just one me. So the current group, when they graduate, there'll be about 85 people, um, who are trained up in my work around the world. They're like coaches, therapists, consultants, community song leaders, people who just know they wanna carry it. They don't even know what they're gonna do with it. It's like, okay, that's fine with me. So this is what I do with my days. I'm also a keynote speaker. I still write songs. I still perform. I do... Again, I lead retreats, multiple channels of things, but this is the primary work of my life that I hope to do until I can't do it. Oh my gosh. Well, I can't wait to continue to dig in, but I wanna go back to what you said because- You said that you went to this, I don't know, was it a workshop? Yeah. Um, and you thought you were here, and, , but you really, like, could get somewhere else. And . I think we all have those gaps in our life. We all think that, you know, this is our capability. Where we are right now or kind of maybe a couple steps, maybe we can believe a couple steps in front of us, but it sometimes takes somebody outside of your, your world to pull you forward and say like, "No, no, no, no. It is so much bigger, and you can go so much further. kinda let me show you how." And I think it's important, A, that we step into places that we think we are not capable of in order to teach ourselves that we can do that, even if it's outside of , like, your learning environment. Like, right? I mean, it may even be outside of your, your, um, not the... I'm trying to think what the right word is, but your gifting, right? Sometimes, you know, just being able to know that you can do something crazy that you didn't think you could do helps unlock it for someone, you know, for, for the other things in your life. You're like, "Oh, if I could do that." For example, my mother, uh, she's 83 years old now, but, um, a year ago she was on a roof. ... She lost her home in the, in the flood, but my 83-year-old mother, like, climbed on top of a roof, and it's something had you asked her the day before that she was capable of, she would've been like, "Nope, not capable." Now when I'm like, "Oh, I don't think you can do that," she's like, "Um, excuse me, I climbed on a roof." "And I can do, I can do anything." Right? Like this one- Yeah ... little victory- Yeah ... that had nothing to do with anything except for she was just like, "Oh, . Okay." Right. Yeah. That's so big. , our lives are one big thing, you know? Mm-hmm. And you like, it's like a mobile. You move one thing in your life, and the whole thing moves, for good and ill. And what blew my mind and, and thank goodness I ended up with Shaul Ryan, who's was my teacher that weekend, and became my friend and colleague. We taught together for over 20 years, and now he just turned 81, or he's turning 81 next week. And he decided not to come across the pond to teach anymore. He's this lovely British man. Uh, but he was so kind and gentle, and I was so scared, you know? And he was just the right teacher for me. Uh, and no one had ever asked me for all the sound I had. There's so much in the world that is telling us less, less. You know,\ suck in your stomach, especially for women. We're supposed to be smaller. We're supposed to be soft and take care of everyone. We're supposed to be conciliatory and endlessly loving and ugh. You know? It's killing us. So to be asked for not just the pretty stuff or the stuff that sounds appropriate, but like, "Ugh," you know, uh, beasts and the, the, the - the creature that made the sound there was a bird. It was like I was this raptor. And there's this, um, these characters in - Greek mythology called the Harpies. They're part \ women, part bird, and they come screaming out of the sky and they tear people apart. And I'm like, I could feel that kind of fierceness in me, and it was thrilling, you know? ... I didn't have to get mad at anybody to do it. It was like- Mm-hmm ... I got to express , these, like, shadowy aspects of myself that are not necessarily welcome in polite company. I got to be big and, " Ugh," stupid and shrill and loud and obnoxious and emotional and all the things you're never supposed to be. And there's lovely Shalo saying, "Oh, that's interesting," with his British accent. You know? It was like, "Oh, it is actually interesting." I was like, part of me was like, "I can't do that. That's not okay." And then to have him say, "Actually, that's interesting. That's lovely." Um, and that's now what I do for the people I work with, is to say, "What have you got? Give me what you've got all the way down to the basement, all the way up to the attic," the shrill sounds, the soft breathy sounds, all of it. And as people do that, they come more alive because it's one big system, right? You move... You change your voice, your life changes along with it. Oh my gosh. There's so much to unpack. I don't know- I know. ... if we're gonna be able to get this done in an hour. okay. Well, let's start with your book, right? You, you have a book, it's called Vocal Intelligence. And for someone who has never... I mean, like, even what you're talking about, I think, you, you actually said it before we started, um, recording today, is that, like, you're actually talking about stuff that nobody's talking about. That's right. So, so explain to someone what vocal intelligence is. Hmm. Well, there's a lot of conversation in the world right now about emotional intelligence. Mm-hmm. Right? It's like read the room, notice how it's landing with the people you're talking to, modify what you're doing so you can connect with them, right? Which hooray for that. When I started doing organizational work, that wasn't anywhere in the mix. Right. So vocal intelligence is exactly the same thing, only it's how are you communicating with other people through the tone of your voice. We spend a lot of time thinking about what we're going to say, which is a good thing. Content matters. But you can have great content and lousy tone, and people are gonna believe the tone. So the vocal intelligence gives you- Increased flexibility and awareness so that how you say what you say is coherent, and if it's not working for the person who's listening to you, you can modify it and look for that connection. And you'll also listen with more acuity as well. You know, not just to the words that people are saying, but what the tone is underneath and what it might mean. So what's the best way that somebody can start to begin this almost, like, practice of noticing that, right? Because I think, you know, one of the things I talk about in The Well-Tended Life is that I feel like a lot of times , we're all just, like, wandering through life, and we're kind of just going about it the same way. So we've got to figure out a way to interrupt the way we're currently noticing things. Um, so how, how would you, how would you coach us to, to start noticing? at the heart of my work is this framework that I made. It's called the Five Elements Framework, and I took, oh, my yoga practice, the chakra system. I took Jungian psychology, the collective unconscious and archetypes. I took what I was learning from my teachers from the Reihardth Center, leadership development, all this kind of stuff, and just started noticing patterns in people's voices, and I divided the voice into five elements, kind of like when you shoot light through a prism and it kind of breaks it apart into- Yeah ROYGBIV, right? I kind of did that with the voice, and so the elements that I developed include earth, which is sourced in your lower body; fire, which is kind of sourced in your belly and solar plexus; water, which is around about your heart; metal, which is, like, right in your face; and air, which is kind of sourced in your crown. And as you can hear, each one sounds distinct, but each one has a really useful function in how you communicate. So for instance, earth is great for projecting authority and getting grounded. Mm. And fire is wonderful for taking up space, being seen and heard, and expressing your passion. This is where I live, especially when I'm teaching. Water is the voice of the heart. So if your heart has something to say like, "That sounds really hard," or, "I'm really sorry, I can see I've hurt you." Which will be very different than, " I'm sorry," which I have said and received. Right? We have all said that, have we not? We've all been there, right? Yes. Apologize to your brother. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's like- ... you're not actually. You're just saying it. No. Anyway, and then there's metal, which is very pointy, and that is really good for getting louder without vocal strain, like really getting clear and focused. So it's great if you're with somebody who needs a hearing aid, or if you're in a loud, crowded place, or outside, or whatever. You need to be heard without vocal strain. And then finally, air is wonderful for talking about an idea. I have an idea. Like waking up the imagination, and it's also really good for storytelling. So when people read books out loud, a lot of times they use all five of these. And then the giant said, "Fee, fi, fo, fum." And the fairy said, "Oh, let me fix that for you." So I think, uh, ... Their first invitation is to just play with various vocal sounds. I like the five elements. There's a TED Talk that takes you through all five in about 18 minutes. And so it's a way to sort of do like yoga stretching for your voice, and just, like, play with opening up more vocal options. And I like using an exaggeration first, because a big change is sometimes easier than a small one. Like you said, you have to break the pattern, and a big change can sometimes pop you out of your story about who you are so you can find out more of who you are. so I'm thinking. Uh, when, when someone is talking and you can tell immediately , what they're saying isn't really what they mean- Mm-hmm ... um, A, A, why does that really happen? Like, I mean, why is there such a disconnect between the two? And, and, you know, how, how do we unravel that, um, as we go forward? Well, there's so many reasons we don't say what we mean There's, oh gosh, biography, you know, just things people told us that were not necessarily true. Culture telling us how we're supposed to be as women, as nice people, blah blah blah blah. You know, so there's a lot of layers. Mm. And I even think it's ancestral. I mean, I love that you're staying connected to your great-great-grandma in this way, and I feel super connected to my ancestors as well, especially the females, 'cause there's some wild women back there, you know? Right. Who were quite powerful in a time where they weren't supposed to be. So I feel like there's so many things that just, like, take a bite out of our wholeness. It's like, "Okay, get smaller. Okay, be nice. Don't yell. Don't say you're angry," uh, blah blah blah blah blah. And it, it, it just eventually... It feels kind of like a girdle. I remember watching my mother struggle into her girdle going like... I don't think I ever wanna do that, and I have not. But , um... It just squashes us into a smaller space, and we do it, I think... I think we do it under duress. Mm. We don't give up our wholeness without fighting. Like, till the last possible thing. And I've worked with so many people who have experienced really serious trauma, really, like, unspeakable things, and it affects your voice. You... A lot of people- Mm ... keep the secret, or they can't, ah, defend themselves, or I've had people who were hit in the face. Um, and so all that lives in the body. So it's the body, the messaging, the culture, patriarchy, sexism. Layer it all up and you end up in this tiny little closet of a voice when you have a mansion. And so I love winging the door open and saying, "All right. Let's go exploring. What else you got?" You know, I'm interested, um... You know, you were talking about trauma. - I've experienced some serious trauma over the last, um, few years, from my father dying to my mother having breast cancer. Then , um, we had a huge flood here , at the Fourth of July last year and then again last week. But during the Fourth of July flood, afterwards, um, I remember I went to, um, a women's retreat just maybe four weeks after the flood, and, um, they were singing, and I, I started to sing, and the minute I started to sing I started to sob. Of course you did, honey. Um, and there was something to my voice rising up and out of me that unlocked something that I don't think I knew needed to be unlocked. Um, and I, I just remember being, like, dumbfounded , just that it happened in that way. Is that normal? Is that a... Like, 'cause I even remember in the same vein, , um, I remember just saying to my husband, "I wish I could just get on top of a, um, a mountain and scream." Like, I feel like I could be, uh, I would be better if I could just, like, release it all. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, that and, and how it can be helpful if you are going through trauma to, to sing and to, to make these utterances? Yeah. You're around any little people, they know what to do. And, you know, and if you c- you can hear it in their voice , w- what they're mad about, you know? It's like, "Oh, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm whiny." And I was just down, I was just, I, I live on a beautiful river here in, Wisconsin, and I was down by the river swimming, and I heard this kid who, like, got hurt, and I could hear that, like, the, "Ow!" You know, the, like, authentic part of that. And then he just kept kind of like, And it was like, "Child, now, now you're manufacturing that." Right? Yeah. So I can... And I'm not, I'm not a parent, you know? Yeah. But I've been around. I mean, , I'm a good auntie, you know? But, uh, we are designed to heal. We're designed to heal. And so we get interrupted in our healing as we become, as a friend used to call it, adulterated. Mm. And so, uh, one of the things I do, uh, my channels that I do in this life is for 19 years I've been the founder and director of the Morning Star Singers, and we sing for people, uh, volunteer, uh, for people who are in hospital, hospice, depressed, sad. Like, after the flood, we would've come and sung to you. Yeah. A group of four or five people. And we're not affiliated with any particular spiritual or religious faith. I mean, . We're all different, but our common thing is that we care and we love to sing songs of comfort and healing, 'cause it's medicine. And we work on ourselves as well. , you know, there's people who have said, "I need to be sung for tonight," and they plop a chair in the middle and 25 people sing to them while they cry. And I did that when my mom was dying. I was so exhausted, and somebody actually just put a chair in the middle and just grabbed me by the hand and put me, and I just laid... You know, it was one of those nice anti-gravity chairs. I just laid there and wailed while they sang to me. And it's like I can't say enough about singing, and it breaks my heart how many people feel that they're not entitled to sing because they're not perfect, or they can't make a living at it, or they don't sound like whoever is, you know, in their Spotify playlist. It just breaks my heart. So the other thing I've also been doing is getting people singing together, whether they can read music or whether they're qualified, just in a community setting. And ... That's happening all over now, that kind of singing. Mm. And I'm really happy to see that that has caught fire the way it has, because that, that is a deeply human experience. Otherwise, it wouldn't be in every single culture on the planet. Yes. You know, it's interesting, uh, when you said kids know what to do. Mm-hmm. You know, kids know how to do it. I immediately felt sad- Mm ... for the kid that I parented, the kids that I parented, but also even me, because - a kid starts to cry, and you're like, "Stop." You know, "Hey," it's... You try to, you try to stop it. It's like, I just had this moment where I was like, "Oh my gosh, I interrupted their healing." And I didn't know it. I thought I was being comforting. No. But allowing them to, you know... And that what you said was, you know, we're designed to heal. Yes, we are. Ah, that's big. Our voice is medicine. Like, my brain over here is exploding. You're welcome. But it's so true, and we get that constriction you were talking about, right? We, we, we get in, we get in our own way of allowing it to just naturally come through and, and out. It's true. And we don't get a lot of support. So when I'm working with people, um, uh, online or in person, I used to work a lot more in person, but now I work with people all over the world online, which is a blast. But so often when we're in fire, which is often like lasagna, you know, where we're pretending to be Italian tenors and getting loud, I cannot tell you how many times people have looked around and they've said, "I wonder if the police are gonna get called." Yeah. I'm like, "You're just being loud and joyful." And so a lot of us get shut down in that part of our voice because that's the angry voice. "I'm mad. I'm mad." You know? It's like- Mm-hmm ... that's not welcome. It wasn't welcome in my house. No. When is it welcome now? Uh, nope. Nope, that's not okay. Uh, but it's also, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited." You know, all that joy and enthusiasm. That all lives in the same part of our voice and our body and our psyche. And so we shut down one part, we miss all the rest. We miss our aliveness, our vitality, our enthusiasm, to quote Tigger. And people talk about the police getting called, which breaks my heart, and also helps me understand why people go to so many rock concerts and sporting events, because that is the place, one of the last places in dominant culture where you're allowed to yell your face off with no consequence I never thought about that Mm-hmm Never It's gotta go somewhere. No It's just gotta go somewhere, right? Wow. And, and really both of those are, It's, like, male dominated usually. Um, you know, it's okay for them to, to release that there. Yeah. And, uh, uh, before we pressed record, I said there, these guys... I live on a steep hill in. a city in a rural county, and there's a lot of guys that go roaring up the hill on their Harleys and their loud trucks. And my story about it is that they do that because they're not allowed culturally to sing or dance, and so ... The only place they can express their roar, you know- Their gusto their big voices is in their cars and trucks So it, it helps me a little. Mostly I get really grumpy though. Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. More fun. ... I mean, I mean, there's so many different directions we can go with this conversation. It, it really is so cool. Um, so for someone though maybe who's listening who wants to become a more grounded, like, more confident communicator, what's one simple practice that they could begin today? Well, one thing I really love, it's like an instant, um, I don't know, it's an instant shift, is to voice your yawn when appropriate. So if you have to yawn, okay, now we're both gonna yawn for the rest of the recording. Yes. Totally. I, yeah. It's so, it's so delicious. So that opens the throat all the way down, and it lets your voice fall into your chest, and a lot of us get stuck right in the throat and we just talk from our throat. Ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra. Like that. And so that is a stretch for your face and your jaw, and also opens up, you know, this tunnel down into your torso that's kind of like a cello. So that's one thing I really recommend to just get used to feeling the sound down there to be more grounded. Um, the other thing I love to suggest is if you're looking to get more fire, which is a lot about confidence, you know, and showing up and taking, excuse me, taking up space, which a lot of women are ambivalent about, uh, make a playlist of your favorite rockers. I mean, Etta James, Bonnie Raitt, Tina Turner, you know, just the belters, um, who just let 'er rip, and then have it pop on when you get in your car or do it when you're chopping onions, and singing along with them, pay attention to what's happening in your voice and your body, and then turn them off and keep singing, and then turn them back on and keep singing. So you get used to feeling more sound coming through your voice, and that bringing a little sense of singing into how you talk just kinda turns up the air velocity so your voice can flow a little bit more. 'Cause a lot of us are kind of holding our breath when we talk. We're not really fueling the voice. You know, it's just kind of crackling out. And that- Doesn't just affect us. For one thing, we're not getting enough oxygen. And for another thing, our mirror neurons, the listeners who are hearing us talk like that, are having that feeling of not getting enough air themselves, you know? So that feeling of like smothering, right? Yes. Right. So that- Interesting ... sense of flow, we're affecting our own nervous systems all the time, but we're affecting others. So voice your yawns, sing along with the rockers, and just have a sense of singing in how you're talking. Like imagine you're turning, turning the airflow up so that the sound rides out on more current, air current. Does that make sense? Yeah, I feel like, I feel like singing a song every single day- Yes ... has got to be good for your health and wellness, right? Absolutely. That is a great way to go about it. Um, and I did mention reading children's books Whether there are children around, and really go into the characters 'cause they're all there. Oh, yeah. You know? "Yeah, I'll fix you, my pretty." I often use The Wizard of Oz so, uh, but yeah, that sense of singing, uh... And , only sing things you love. Life's too short. Oh. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Um, okay. So here at The Well-Tended Life, we talk about, um, attending to every parts of ourselves. How has tending to your own voice changed your life? In every possible way. You know, I feel sad about the ways I was shut down and, you know, like all of us, I have my own, uh, you know, sad story. I cannot express my gratitude for how generous the voice is. No matter how traumatized, shut down, narrowed, hurt, um, y- you know, unless there's been, like, serious physical damage- Right the voice is generally ready to come back and play. And so as my voice changed, my life changed. I got more grounded in my earth voice. I got lighter in my air voice. I, I found my own heart much more tenderly in the water. And so I feel like I've been deeply affected by the sounds, the full sounds of my humanity- Mm in how I speak, and also I'm a singer, so how I sing has changed a lot. And I walk around feeling more whole. Like, I get to have all these aspects of myself in my back pocket, and, and .. There were some that I didn't like at all. I didn't, I didn't like the high, soft sounds at all. I'm a tall woman. I'm 6'2", I'm from Minnesota, I'm no nonsense, I'm smart. Mm. You know? Right. And so there's just been all this healing and wholeness that's been able to come back, so. A lot. So it's so good. I, I, I don't think I ever really thought about my voice being a tool, right? Um, a tool in my toolbox, uh, and, and a piece of my healing, um, in this way before. So, um, gosh, thank you already ... And we're not even done yet. But- , that being said, though, if there is a woman listening today, uh, that could leave really here with one new belief about her voice, like, what do you, what do you want women specifically, right, to, to leave with when, when they understand that their voice is a tool and, um, that this is something that they can use? Well, one thing I really love, I always start my workshops asking people the question, "What is your story about your voice?" And then I invite them to just, like, journal, write, or talk to somebody or something. Just open that question because I feel like the biggest thing I would invite women to do is to just start paying attention to their voices. Mm-hmm. And that's a really good way to start, is by looking at , what were the blessings that people put on your voice? What were the curses that people put on your voice? What are the injuries? What are the, uh, peak experiences of speaking or singing? What were the, like, ugh, the cringe-worthy moments of speaking or singing? All of that stuff. Because your voice is a just a, has its own story to tell about your life. So that would be, I think- Mm-hmm ... a fun thing to take to your book group, for instance, or, uh, when you're having coffee with your friend and you just don't wanna complain about the same things you always complain about. I'm projecting here. Is you could just say, "Hey, I'm curious. What's your story about your voice?" And just have a conversation about that because it feels like that's opens a whole lot of awareness of this- Mm ... beautiful friend we have, this beautiful ally, tool, uh, yeah, companion that wants the best for us. So I would say that would be a really great place to start. I love that. A curiosity is a gr- always a great place to start, and actually, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, some of you out there may, maybe you've gone and, like, tried to set boundaries with people that you love, and they just keep getting run over and run over and run over. Maybe take a look and think about , what voice were you using when you set those boundaries, or right? There, there's, there's probably things that you've been trying to say, trying to communicate, and you keep thinking it's them, and listen, let's be clear. Sometimes it is them. It is. Yeah. Sometimes they can't hear no matter, they can't hear you no matter what tone of voice you are using. But, um, you know, if you're willing to run back at something again, maybe consider changing your, your tone of voice, right? Right. Because if you're using that, like, nasally voice and that up in your throat and you're like, "Here's my boundary," right? And then you're j- they are like, "But I don't really believe you. You don't really mean that." Even though your heart means it, you're just using the wrong tone of voice. Correct. And you know when I really found, uh, this to be particularly true is during COVID when everybody got a puppy and also wanted to s- like, play ukulele and sing. So I was working with lots of people on Zoom, as I do now. And so this one woman had this puppy, and we couldn't do anything because the puppy was just like, "Ah!" You know? It was just going nuts all the time. And she'd be like, "Bailey, no. Bailey, Bailey." You know? And Bailey's like, "I'm the alpha. I'm the alpha. I'm the alpha." Yeah. And so I said, "Okay, let's just start with the earth voice. No." It works with dogs. And I had this in a training when I was training people in person. There was this huge, like, p- uh, Great Pyrenees, a white dog, that fell in love with one of my, one of my pupils, and we were working at this place, this farm. You know, that's where we were meeting. And every time the dog saw her, ba-da-doom, ba-da-doom, ba-da-doom, would come and, like, practically knock her down. Put, you know, put his paws on her shoulders. And so we w- I said, "Okay, here's your opportunity." So she worked with getting... You know, she had a w- nice, watery, soft voice. Very wonderful, until it was terrible, just like all of us. Yeah. And so this dog came galumphing at her, and she was like, "No!" And the dog got this, like, startled look, like, "Wh- wait a minute. Hold on. That, I, I, I heard that." Yeah. And so, uh, the earth particularly, you're speaking animal to animal. This is, like, your primal voice. Yeah. You know. And so a lot of women are taught not to have this, you know? Not to be a jerk, not to be mad- Yeah ... not to be clear, and- Yeah ... oh my goodness, we need it. And that's when we get run over. All the time. Yeah. And then we don't under- and then we end up feeling like victims, and then we end up whining, which makes it even wor- You know, I mean, it's just like, I speak for myself here. And so- Yeah. We've all done it. That's what's, like, that's what's so revolutionary about this conversation to me, is that it's like my eyes are now open to my own behaviors. Mm-hmm. Um, and even the behaviors of others that maybe I've been misinterpreting because of, of how they're saying things, but, um, it's huge. It's so huge. And then we're often trying to communicate, uh, especially in workplaces and community spaces, across difference. Like, you're in Texas, I'm- Yep ... in Wisconsin, and so how we use our voice is different based on our accents. I have family in Georgia, and I'm saying y'all by the time I get off the plane, you know? 'Cause I just, I'm a musician, so my ears just pick up everything. Oh, yeah. And then we're talking across generations, and often internationally. So when people are working in a language that is maybe their second or third, I did a podcast with a woman who is trilingual and has been since she was a little girl, uh, how th- how you sound in your mother tongue is very different than how you sound in, say, American English. And so there's all these subtle layers. There's class, education. There's your state of health. Uh, there's your mood. All of it is impacting our voice, and a little bit of attention can help- Mm some of that so we might have a chance of connecting. And that is the whole point of my work, is because if we don't connect, nothing happens. Every family, every business, every, uh, community project, everything has started as a conversation Hey friend, if you've been feeling stuck, maybe overwhelmed or disconnected from yourself, or perhaps you're just ready for a change, coaching might be the next right step for you. My coaching style is honest, encouraging, practical, and deeply rooted in the idea that your life deserves tending to. Together, we can work through the real stuff, transitions, purpose, relationships, burnout, boundaries, dreams, or maybe even the patterns that keep you from growing the life you actually want. Because sometimes what we need most is someone willing to walk through the life garden with us. You can learn more about coaching opportunities at kerriwilt.com or check the link in the show notes. Okay. Um, gosh, before we move on to the back half of this interview, uh, where I ask all the same guests the same questions, is there anything else you wanna share about your work before we move on? Hmm Anything you feel like we missed? I just, you know, I just feel like I've made so much available. You know, two TED Talks and two books and a lot of resources on my website, barbaramcfee.com. I lead online courses. So I'm really wanting people to be able to access this work in multiple ways. Audiobooks, I mean the whole thing. So if you're intrigued and curious, there's a lot of free and easy ways to access more about this, and I, I would love it if you'd do it even if we never work together. I just think go play with your vo- go outside and play with your voice. Love that. That is the best. That's perfect. Perfect to end that part on. Love it. Okay. So, uh, I ask all of my guests the same few questions. Um, the first one is tell us about the life season you're in, kind of just finished or heading into. Um, because I personally believe that understanding where you are and , you know, in the season that you're in really impacts what we need to say yes to, what we need to say no to, and all the things. So tell us a little bit about where you are. Well, I, I'm calling myself a baby elder. I'm 66, - Love that and, uh, one of my mentors and friends, Angeles Arrien, talked about in her Basque culture you weren't an elder until you were 90, and she sadly didn't make it. She died in her 70s. So I can feel , the fact that it's not all about me anymore, right? That I'm supposed to mentor people. I'm supposed to teach, offer what I have. I'm still very vital, thank goodness, and alive, but I can feel that it's not about me anymore, and thank goodness about that. Um, so I, I feel like I'm in that season, and I'm also a lot of the work I'm doing, um, one of my newer kind of ways of working is doing retreats called Living, Dying, Music and Mystery, where we get together, uh, people of all genders and we talk about death and dying, your first experience, because I feel like that's also I've had enough people who have died, um, in various ways and I've learned so much from them. And so I tell stories. We tell stories. We sing a lot. So I'm also really aware that the timeline is not infinite now. Mm-hmm. I love that early elder. I love that Baby. I'm a baby elder. Baby elder. Okay, baby elder ... pooping my pants and maybe not sleeping through the night. Okay. Well, so besides training your voice and using your voice, um, do you have any regular practices that help you to live your best well-tended life? So many. I moved to this little town six years ago from Minneapolis, which I loved, still love, and I'm an hour outside in a river town. The river of my childhood said, "You need to come home, sweetheart." So I bought a little cottage, much to my surprise, did not see this coming, and I, uh, most mornings go for a long hike. We've had a lot of wildfire smoke here, so I'm a little stir crazy, but I go for a long hike in the woods. I might see deer. I saw a bear last week. I hike down to the river. I jump in the river and swim around for a long, long time. I love to swim. And then I come back, hike back home, and that is, uh, a lot how I start my days, uh- Hmm ... seeing the world. And then I also love writing mostly songs. I've been a poet longer than I've been a songwriter, but the practice of listening for what I have to say. I'm a cold plunger also, which is really great when I'm here. Um, it's hot now today, but, uh, I have these shoulder seasons in spring and fall where I can get in very cold, clean water, and I wanted to share that experience with people who are just like, "I'm never doing that." So- Yeah, I don't like to be cold. No. I, actually, I hate being cold, but I love being in the cold water, uh, and then getting out, and how it feels afterwards, and that has been a great practice. But I wrote a song that, to convey that, uh, experience about being in the water in the springtime, and, uh, I love that practice of, like, trying to translate a very private, personal something. I've written my own death song. I wrote a song about my father's death when I was 31. Hmm. I've written, uh, - goofy songs about self-talk, uh, one called Brain Rats, which is hilarious. Um, so I just love the practice of synthesizing something into song form. So good. Um, okay, and then the last question I have is I ask people to look back to notice a lot of what we've been talking about today, um, w- the joy, goodness, and growth that has happened recently in their lives. There's a quote from The Secret Garden. It actually says, uh, "Mary hadn't noticed it before, but she looked up and saw it." And we talked earlier kind of about how everybody's rushing about, and I believe that joy, goodness, and growth is planted around us every single day. We just have to be aware enough to see it. So, um, tell me about , what is bringing you joy these days? What have you noticed? So many things. I mean, this conversation for one thing. It's just been so fun. And, um I just worked with a young woman who has some really huge challenges, and her, uh, mom brings her out. She's in her late 30s, and she loves to sing. Um, and so we had a good time, 'cause sometimes she has, like, multiple personalities, and so sometimes it's kinda tough. And today was a good day, and- Mm ... she had a blast. I had a blast, uh, singing together, and I just feel like that was pretty... That was, like, my most immediate joy. That happened right before I hopped on. Love it. Yeah. What about goodness? So goodness is something that you would write in a gratitude journal. . You know, It's like You know, I always say joy is up here in your head. Goodness is kinda in your heart. Um, so I guess water, right? Is that... That's where the heart is, water. Yep. Um, so, uh, tell me, what are you, what are you feeling grateful for these days? Oh, my garden. Tonight I'm having a kale salad with beets and some fresh dill and feta cheese from the farmers market that I don't make, but Josh does. And some grilled zucchini, and basically almost everything in there is something I grew. Yay. Which I... That is just a miracle to me that you put, like, seeds in the ground. It's magic, right? I- I love it ... listen, if you are listening to this at home and you have never planted a seed and watched it grow, I need you to go to the store right now. Go buy some simple seeds that you can grow, it is literally magic. You will look at the world a whole different way. It is something else, and it's such a good lesson that, you know, I can't make anything grow. What I can do is provide the conditions in which something may grow, which requires paying attention. Yes. It's like, you know, oh, those carrots look a little wilted. They need some water. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, oh, I've got volunteer tomatoes coming up, from last year's seeds. , uh, so I dug up a new little patch yesterday and I stuck them in there and watered them, and I'll have to go water them again 'cause it's hot here today. Mm. Yeah. Well, and I always say that, like, a garden is just one big, like, science experiment. Like, what- Yeah ... what worked this year may not work next year. You're always just kinda trial and error, and I, I believe that's how life is, right? We just- Sure is ... you know, you, y- you, you, you do, you do your best. You, you water what, what matters most, and, uh- You know, if it's not working, sometimes it's time to prune it away and, and plant something else. That's right. And I have a bunch of flowers here as well, and I just plant for the bees and the hummingbirds. Ah. And I love sitting out there and listening to them z- z- z- just buzzing around. It's like so good. It's so good. It's so good. All right, well, well, so the last one is growth, and growth is always the hardest one to spot because growth happens in tiny little shoots. Um, so you don't always notice it right away. But where are you seeing growth in your life right now? Hmm. Well, in my muscles. Nice. Good girl. I have been trying for years. I am a super fit person. I can swim forever, I never get tired. I hike a lot. I have... You know, I sing, \ I work outside in my gardens. I'm, like, super active. But I have had this resistance to building muscle, and I cracked it. I have this friend, Suzanne, who is... Everybody thinks we're sisters. We look a lot alike and we're very similar energetically. And we did a trade. I gave her some voice work, uh, and she, uh, set me up with some kettlebells and weights and a little routine. And I went to the club this morning and I pumped my iron. Nice. So I feel... And I come home and I just feel like, oh, I feel like a superhero because I finally cracked it. I have to go, it's covered , under my Medicare, uh, supplement. I have to go at least four times a month or they charge me for it, so there's an incentive. I have Suzanne in my corner. I check in with her. It's like, "Hey, I worked out today." I s- I just asked her- Yeah ... "Can I text you?" Yeah. Just, just... She sai- I said, "You don't even have to read it. I just want accountability and I wanna celebrate." And so what's growing is my muscles. Love that. Well, I also love the simplicity of just texting a friend that you did it, right? Yeah. Like, we think that we have to hire a trainer or we have to do all of these things, and sometimes all we need is somebody that knows that we're working towards something and that, you know, that will help you. Is, I mean, that, that's... Like you said, you sh- she doesn't even have to answer. Right. Right. And she's such a good cheerleader 'cause we're about the same age. She just turned 67. I'm turning 67 in, uh, at the end of the year. And so she's worked a lot with women's bodies and aging, and she is incredibly strong and fit. She teaches aquacise five days a week, plus works... I mean, she's a- Wow ... she's a strong woman. And she's tailored it for my body and she's like, "Have fun. Mix it up." Y- you know, she's just so- Yes ... just the perfect coach for me that- Well, and I think- ... not about like- ... fun is the key. Don't you think- It is ... fun is the key? And flexibility to- Mm ... to not... A- you know, flexibility and femininity. She's like not about, like, being, like, girly feminine, but, like, really understanding how... She's been a trainer for a long time and she understands how women's bodies work and how aging women's bodies work. And so, um, I just feel incredibly grateful for her. And I think I got it. I got it. I got it Yay. So exciting. It is. Um, Barbara, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been so lovely. Um, remind people again how they can find you, follow you, all the things. Uh, I think I sent you a whole bunch of show notes. Yes, it'll all be in the show notes. A ton of stuff, but I would say the best place to start is my website, barbaramcafee.com. Perfect 'Cause, like, tons of music videos there, tons of resources around the, the voice, the five elements framework and voice stuff, and classes and retreats and, you know, you can come to Mexico and sing with me for a week in March. That, it's just- Oh, my gosh ... it's just as terrible as it sounds. I don't, that does not sound terrible at all. I'm kidding. You know. No, I have a, I lead a women's retreat where we just use our voices and play and sing in the oral tradition for a week by the ocean, so. Oh, my gosh. That sounds magical. It is pretty magical. Oh, my. So anyway, all of that, that's the best entry point to my work is my website. Perfect. And for those of you listening, don't panic, it'll all be in the show notes, too. Um, thank you to everyone who has been listening. I sincerely hope , that this episode has inspired you to look at your voice in a whole new way, to notice it and use it as a tool in order to live out your best well-tended life. And until next time, y'all, blessings and blooms. Well, friends, I sincerely hope that today's conversation planted a seed deep in your heart that you needed most. Be sure to check out the show notes for a few of my favorite heart tap moments from this episode, and then come tell me yours over on Instagram or Facebook. And if you're enjoying The Well-Tended Life podcast, the best way you can support the show is by sharing it with a friend or leaving a thoughtful review. It truly helps more people find this little corner of encouragement and growth. Thank you so much for being here, and until next time, y'all, blessings and blooms.